My first taste of KDE…
Posted by Jason on August 14, 2008
As I briefly mentioned in another post, I am seriously concerned with GNOME’s infatuation with Microsoft technologies.
As a newcomer to the Linux scene, I was not aware that GNOME was tied up with Novell and all in a 3-way with Redmond. However, the more I find out about, the more discomforted I become – and, having recently heard about the new KDE4 – I thought I might give KDE a shot!
Install
I found this guide to be very handy and straight forward. You basically add one repo to your sources, and install kubuntu-kde4-desktop. Simple and worked like a champ.
First off, let me say KDE4.1 looks sweet. I had no problem finding application from the menu and fiddling around with some settings.
I tried out Konversation and thought it was pretty neat (I normally use Pidgin, but I think switching there would be no problem). I liked the KDE panel and icons – I thought the file manager was nice. I didn’t mess around with a whole lot, because….
Epic Fail in the Housewares Department
Try as I might, I could not get all my monitors working. Here was the basic situation:
On the “left and center” monitors (Twinview), I could drag windows between them, but I could not get a wallpaper on the center monitor – it was some white and grey checkerboard pattern. Relatedly (?), I could not right-click on the desktop and get the pop-up menu. The whole time it was showing one big 3840×1200 screen in the Display dialog.
At one point, through random fiddling, the Display properties that you get from right clicking on the desktop showed a wide-ass monitor and then the wallpaper stretched across both monitors. At that point I could right-click on the desktop in either monitor. However, I still could not get the panel to go on the center monitor.
Something happened later, and I never could get it back to this point, which would have been at least workable.
The right-most monitor, which is a separate X screen on a separate video card just had a solid black background. There was a terminal window open there, which was part of my configuration. So, if I typed something in the terminal it would run in that X screen. However, I could not figure out how to add a panel there. This was pretty much a show-stopper for me.
I tried #kubuntu and #kde a couple of times, and got some sympathetic comments, but most of the talk seemed to hint that no one there understood how multiple monitors are supported under KDE4.
Also, for some reason when I rebooted kinit said something about not finding the stored session or something and I was dropped to the command line to log in instead of the GDM login screen. Upon logging in there, X came up. This happened every time.
Uninstalling
Wow this was REALLY messed up and I’m not sure exactly how to assign the blame. I went into Synaptic and checked the kubuntu packages and the kubuntu apps for uninstall. After it was done, I looked at the command-line output (as is my custom).
I noticed that is also removed the kernel, grub, initramfs, and lots of other stuff you might not have expected!
Now, I’m damn sure I didn’t check off to remove the kernel and all that other stuff. And I also know when I removed the ubuntu-studio package I also had some similar (but not nearly as drastic) issues. So, I won’t blame it all on the KDE package there.
In any case, I just re-installed those packages before re-booting and everything was pretty much fine…Except….
It’s never simple
Somehow, when re-installing the kernel package, it also re-installed the restricted modules, so when I rebooted X would not load because of some NVIDIA “API mismatch”. I found this thread on the Ubuntu forums which described the problem and a solution.
I didn’t do all that mess with the vesa driver, though. I just removed the currently running nvidia module, and then started it up. X started fine and I tried to run nvidia-settings, but I had to copy over a backup of a good xorg.conf. Hooray for keeping copies of crucial files!
In summary
I really wanted to give KDE a shot. Hell, I still do. However, I found a couple of post that described my triple monitor problem to a T, but no answers.
I went into the thing thinking switching from GNOME to KDE would be more a matter of familiarization with new applications, and figuring out how to tweak various settings. And maybe it is in most cases – I realize multi-head setups are a bit of a twist.
I’m not sour on the experience, because (1) I liked what I saw, and (2) I didn’t spend a whole lot of time on it – just a few hours. It is highly likely I will give KDE another shot, maybe when 4.2 is out?
11 Responses to “My first taste of KDE…”
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Bart van Deenen said
Hi
I understand your feeling, and have the same issues with Twinview and KDE4.1. At my work where I have a twinview setup, I’m back to kde3.5, which is rocksolid. At home with a single monitor setup I’m using 4.1
Same as you, I don’t like the direction that Gnome is taking at all, so no Gnome for me.
Good luck
Bart
A.J. Venter said
Just some notes to help:
The use of a secondary X-screen setup is not currently supported by KDE, it’s on the TODO list for 4.2 – this is just as true if you use that setup on a single card (bypassing twinview and Xinerma on purpose) – I know because I have a similar setup and asked the question on the KDE mailing list.
KDE3 handles this but the code for handling it in 4.x isn’t finished yet.
Then there seems to be some confusion here about the various ways multiple monitors work. NVidia can set up either twinview or Xinerama based setups. The latter is the Xorg default and has them as two distinct screen sections in the xorg config file, which the desktop is then spanned over. The alternative is twinview, which actually is NVidia specific. Twinview sets up a single X display, spanned by the Nvidia driver across the monitors and using a so-called Meta mode resolution that equals the sums of the two resolutions.
You seem to, at various times have had both setups on your first two monitors. The stretched wallpaper with panel not easily placed on the second screen is typical of twinview (because apps like KDE thinks it’s just one huge desktop), the other one (where the desktop doesn’t seem to recognize it’s there) is typical of multiple-display WITHOUT xinerama.
I would suggest enabling it as a sepperate X display in NVidia settings with xinerama turned ON. That should give you the most standard X approach to multiple monitors (and hopefully play nice with KDE4).
As for your uninstall issues, there is a documented ubuntu problem there. The general advice is: never use synaptic to install/uninstall KDE packages. Use synaptic is you use the gnome desktop, if you are using KDE- use adept. Synaptic messes up things with the kubuntu desktops (and I think adept breaks some things on gnome desktops too).
This is not an ideal state, and has a lot to do with the disparate development structures of Canonical where the kubuntu and ubuntu desktops are developed in rather too much isolation. PCLinuxOS is a KDE distro which uses synaptic so it shows it can work if you repo’s are sufficiently well designed but the way the Kubuntu and Ubuntu repos are split causes issues.
Not trying to diss Ubuntu (I use kubuntu-kde4 myself) just trying to indicate where the problem lies and what the right solution is.
The best way uninstall kde4 in my experience is to use the command line:
sudo apt-get remove `apt-cache search kde4`
(I’ve reinstalled kde4 on kubuntu several times for various reasons so I’ve had some practice).
KDE4.1 is really a sweet desktop and well on it’s way to a very exciting future, KDE4.2 should be even more amazing. I hope the info I give here helps make your next venture (whenever it may be) into the KDE world more successful.
Marcus said
Novell actually employs a bunch of KDE developers as well and KDE also seems to be moving toward Mono lately.
Mono Sneaks into KDE
KDevelop also has support for building Mono projects from what I hear, so it seems we aren’t even safe from Mono using KDE.
I’ve been considering moving to GNUStep as my new desktop and avoiding all GNOME/KDE apps due to the taint.
Besides, GNOME and KDE are bloated beasts anyway, my machine will probably be a lot more snappy once I get rid of the GNOME/KDE disappointments.
p.cole said
Same here. I will not infect a solid, working environment with mono. On some machines, I’ve dump gnome from them and I’m considering taking KDE out also. Currently running LXDE on the laptop.
ushimitsudoki said
A.J. – Thanks for the info there! At least I know it’s a support issue and not something I was overlooking!
Marcus – Man, that is depressing news.
p.cole – I actually tried out LXDE on my laptop after reading your comment! I liked it a lot, and think I might investigate it in a little more detail. Thanks for turning me on to that!
Bogdan Bivolaru said
That’s the same reason I don’t use Gnome – it seems to Mono-ish to use.
I also found Kubuntu 8.04 + KDE 4 has a couple of problems, so I decided to put KDE 4 on hold until Kubuntu 8.10 shows up. It’s nice to find like-minded people.
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Eruaran said
Don’t worry, KDE won’t go all Mono on you. Qt is a very strong development toolkit and the KDE team have already done brilliant work at making KDE a highly desirable platform to develop for – because developing for it is FUN. I believe KDE 4.x is already way too far down a non-mono road for it to become a significant issue. No creeping Mono dependencies here, and no need for them.
The Mono and C# bindings are the work of Richard Dale, but I haven’t seen any group of KDE developers interested in nor promoting Mono/Moonlight/C# on KDE. Indeed I’ve seen hostility toward this, unlike what we see amongst Gnome devs with Miguel de Icaza and his mutual Microsoft admiration society. Novell might push it, but should we expect anything different from Novell ?
KDE has learned solid lessons from the past about maintaining its independence and I don’t see this very independent culture changing any time soon. I don’t know of any Mono dependant KDE apps and you’re not going to see any Mono/Moonlight desktop: KDE 4.x is already a ‘future ready’ environment sporting a raft of great frameworks that simply doesn’t need Mono or Moonlight.
It is interesting to note that Miguel de Icaza’s visions of a Mono/Moonlight desktop for Gnome sounds strikingly like what KDE 4.1 has already developed, and will develop further… only not as good, since it will be dependent on his favorite potential patent bombs.
Look how far KDE is down their particular development path with KDE 4.x, it would be no small job to then change that into a Mono/Moonlight dependent culture. If Gnome heads down that Mono/Moonlight path of development dependency (and its not like we hear Gnome devs protesting the idea), as Miguel de Icaza wants it to, it will be no small job to undo such a disastrous course. If any one person could be the ruin of Gnome, he’s it. But its not just him, there is a core group surrounding him. I think Gnome may be destined to become roadkill in its dance of death with Novell/Microsoft because of these people.
Isn’t it ironic that KDE is today more free and independent than Gnome which originally came into being because once upon a time KDE was dependent on a non-free development toolkit… how the tables have turned…
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Allen Fuller said
KDE has been my favorite for some time. Back in its early days, the look-and-feel of KDE seemed to imitate Windows whereas Gnome seemed to have a different, non-MS look-and-feel. But underneath, the architecture is the opposite: KDE strikes out in its own independent direction with some very interesting innovations, whereas Gnome has often copied ideas wholesale from Microsoft (e.g. COM, and now .NET). It has been many years since KDE looked like Windows; I’d say by my rough estimation that since at least 2000 it has also done some interesting things in the look-and-feel department.
Nevertheless, I have to say that KDE 4 is a big disappointment for me personally. Perhaps because my expectations have been set so high by KDE 3.5. Architecturally and in terms of innovations, KDE 4 looks really cool. But the execution has had too many problems. I still cannot run it for more than a few days without rebooting or restarting KDE; plasma seems to eat up memory and CPU and it gets worse over time. A lot of key features are missing; since KDE 4 is almost completely new, a lot of things I got used to in 3.5 are not yet implemented. The dual screen support is just the latest in the list of irritating missing features.
So KDE 4 has a lot of promise, but it definitely needs some more time to mature… and I know the KDE team is working hard on it.
ushimitsudoki said
Allen,
I agree strongly – KDE 4 has a lot of promise but the team really bungled the release. I don’t doubt that KDE really has the ability to be a fantastic DE — they just have to get it together going forward.